President Eduard Shevardnadze had an extremely busy summer but in August he found an hour for a conversation with the Washington Times:

Barry Jagoda, The Washington Times: What were your main goals ten years ago when you agreed to come back to lead Georgia?

President Shevardnadze addresses soldiers taking part in the $64 million U. S. “Train and Equip” program.

President Eduard Shevardnadze: It is indeed very difficult to connect this with private goals or private wishes. We must talk about obligations that one would have. I was born here, raised here, I’m the son of this land. For decades I’ve been working here. When I returned the country was on the brink of catastrophe, and I mean it. I had to save the country. Well, have I have completed that and how far succeeded? Probably I succeeded a little bit.

TWT: One of your top aides said your specific aims were to build democracy, contain the Russians and build a “New Silk Road,” energy corridor from Asia to Europe.

President Shevardnadze: That was the following stage, because initially there was chaos, incredible chaos, the country was in an abyss. And it was important to take the country out of it. The situation was even more dramatic than I have expressed. As for as the corridor and other ideas, these have been elaborated over the years. However, the Silk Road itself, was an idea which I nurtured even during my times as the Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Soviet Union, of course I didn’t imagine that Georgia would be a part of it or a focal point.

TWT: You first spoke of the “silk road project” in 1990 at a conference in Vladivostok, did you not?
President Shevardnadze: Indeed, it was 1990.

TWT: Let’s talk about a question that’s on your mind a lot: How are you coming in your long-term relationship with Russians? And would you address just the current problems.

President Shevardnadze: Let me go back to your first question about my thoughts and ideas when I came here. Certainly you’ve mentioned democracy, and of course one of the goals was to build democracy here. While still in the Soviet Union I had already made up my mind on democratic transition and so when I came here I indeed had that to build a democratic society. The relationship with Russia in the first years of Georgia’s independence was not quite right and eventually that turned into problems and difficulties between the two countries. Later this was even more aggravated by the conflict in Abkhazia. Russia, and Russian citizens, played a negative role in that conflict and it’s due to them that we lost that territory. As for today we have an agreement-in-principle with Putin–that’s Putin and myself; we agreed to sign a new framework document outlining every aspect of our relationship because the first document of that kind although signed by the two presidents was not ratified by the Russian Duma. The first draft is already on the table; He and I discussed it today and we expect to finish the work by fall. And we agreed that once the work on the document is finished we will meet either in Russia or Georgia and start our relationship from scratch.

TWT: When do you think you might meet and how are you getting along with Putin, at least on the phone?

President Shevardnadze has two news conferences a month and delivers a radio talk each week. In August, 2002 he was interviewed by The Washington Times Senior Writer Barry Jagoda.

President Shevardnadze: Yes, we do talk on the phone and quite often. It was coming along pretty nicely but in the past few days we do have reason for concern. This comes from the fact that certain Chechen groups are crossing the border between Russia and Georgia, and Russia is accusing Georgia. I want to emphasize that Chechens who came to Georgia were forced into Georgia, it was not our will to have them here, we were rather forced to accept them. And we think that this was deliberately done by the Russian military who were actually pursuing them, chasing them and pushing them into Georgia. And some of these military elements had in mind spilling military activities onto Georgia territory.

TWT: Speaking of Russians, I see there is a decline in the use of Russian language. Is the loss of the language of your neighbor a trend of concern to you?

President Shevardnadze: In fact, the Russian language was the state language in the old days. However, the people of Georgia managed to preserve the Georgian language, not only for themselves, but to preserve the official status of the Georgian language. And in the Brezhnev period, when a new constitution was being elaborated the whole Georgian nation protected our language, so that it remained always as an official language, in parallel to Russian. Of course the working language, which was used within the government, was Russian. I was the First Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party and my reports and my oral reports were always in Russian. That was the custom in Uzbekistan, Ukraine and elsewhere in the Soviet Union. This was always a point of protest by the people.

TWT: But I remember that the First Secretary and Foreign Minister was always said to speak Russian with a thick Georgian accent! Mr. President, how do you assess the contribution of the Americans and the West to your transition economics? Have they done enough, are there some specific things that could be done better?

President Shevardnadze: Ten years ago when I came to Georgia the country was completely isolated from the civilized world. Our first purpose was to break out and to find friends, to make friends with our future partners, western countries. And I would dare say that the personal factor, the fact that they knew me personally in my previous capacity very well was a factor that helped a great deal in this regard, in recognition of the country. The Georgian-American relationship has about ten years of history by now and the US assistance rendered so far is absolutely invaluable. Georgia is a small country but by the decisions of Congress and the President of the United States we’ve received over 1.5 billion US dollars. That also includes wheat and other grain products, food products in the early days of Georgia’s independence when the country was on the brink of hunger. Other countries also support us, Germany, for instance, the Netherlands, and a few others.

Actually I would say we’ve always had a solid basis for our relationship, and today it has transformed into a mutual and beneficial collaboration. An example of that is the pipeline that passes through Georgian territory from the Caspian Sea. Two more will be built, an oil pipeline from Baku to Tbilisi to Ceyhan and a gas pipeline from Baku through Tbilisi to Erzerum. These are two gigantic projects. These are being built by an American company and by others with America’s leadership. So today what we have on our joined agenda is that the United States is interested in having Georgia as a stable country, as the country, which hosts so many important projects. The same applies to cargo which will pass through Georgian ports and will go down to Afghanistan and Central Asia. Georgia’s participation in materializing the Silk Road concept is essential. Just recently President Bush made an historic decision for Georgia offering the train and equip program for the Georgian armed forces. Such cooperation in the military field already is a manifestation of great confidence in each other.

TWT: How is that Train and Equip program coming along?

President Shevardnadze: Well, the start was quite successful. The experts from the US are very enthusiastic, I meet them regularly. Very good young people were recruited from Georgia. Tomorrow morning (August 3), I’m going to attend the national Military Academy and I will personally give the first certificates to the first graduates of the course.

TWT: With the arrival of a market economy there is bound to be some greed and some corporate and individual static over boundaries. We see this in the US. But do you have a strong enough system of government regulation to deal with rising capitalism? You were famously successful as Communist Party First Secretary in dealing with problems of corruption, but are the issues deeper and more persistent now?

President Shevardnadze: As for regulations we do have sufficient authority within existing law. If a certain act is illegal certainly we will get involved. But Georgian law does provide support for business development and in a country where business is just beginning this has to be the case. Today we often hear the words “oligarch” and “multi-billionaires”. Actually we don’t have that kind of people in Georgia, but if in the old days people lived basically on the same level, today there is a kind of differentiation. We have the rich and we have the poor, of course the rich are less in number. Well, of course there is this factor of irritation for those who are in poverty. But what I noticed lately is that businessmen have grown up, too. They’ve reached the stage where one needs not only money but also a good name. Because then that name helps them in turn to expand the business. So, this aggressiveness, which was quite visible in the first years, is fading little by little.

TWT: Speaking of aggressiveness, I am wondering if your traffic police, instead of collecting traffic fine bribes, couldn’t help people cross the street, protect pedestrians from these wild Georgian drivers? When I was little boy, even in the wild west of Texas, the policeman was your friend.

President Shevardnadze: We are looking for resources to downsize the corps but increase the salaries of the police. It’s difficult, when a policeman is underpaid, when he makes 100 to 120 Lari, which is about $50, he’s got a family to support, so that makes it easier for the person to get involved in some bribery. You mentioned corruption. Why does an American policeman not do the same as the Georgia policeman does? Because he is very careful about his job, he knows he may lose his salary and he has security. We have to achieve that same level. Certainly, it’s not the case that we just turn a blind eye to the police, of course they have been punished. We have changed at least half of the traffic police over the last few years, but by far it is not enough.

TWT: Because you need outside business capital, how do you assess the opportunity for foreign investment in Georgia?

President Shevardnadze: Despite the fact that there might be indications of possible instability, I would still say that an investor who wants to invest in the future and has a vision for his business, Georgia is a very prospective country. People who have invested here are making lots of money.

Take Turkey for instance; there are over 100 joint ventures between Turkey and Georgia. The same with Russia. We want to cooperate economically with the Ukraine, with the U.S. We are not talking only about mega projects, but also about medium to small size businesses, maybe there are not many American companies involved in this. I know that one company has bought a sparkling wine factory in Georgia, a Georgian-American joint venture. Well, there were some attempts to intimidate that company. The information came to my desk, I got involved, of course within the law, and today that company produces 5 million bottles per year. And hopefully you will take some bottles to the U.S. Once you decide to drink the best sparkling wine look out for that company. ‘Bagrationi’ is the name.

TWT: Here it is nearly 7:30pm, but I understand this is just the middle of your work day, they say you work all the time. Do you have hobbies? How do you relax?

President Shevardnadze: Everybody has hobbies. But one would need time to have a hobby, and I don’t have time. The ultimate goal of my life is to have Georgia a wealthy country, a democratic country, where a man feels free. And we did achieve quite a lot I should say. So this is my main hobby, as I would put it.

TWT: I heard that you had a personal vineyard.

President Shevardnadze: In the old days when I was the Communist Party leader I had some 50 vines on our dacha. And I love taking care of vines, watching them and carefully trimming them. I know how to produce wine. And I also had bees. 20 families. So, we had honey, we had wine. What else would a man need? Well, I had a little bit more time in those days.

TWT: Thank you very much, Mr. President.